Alt-BEAM Archive

Message #11702



To: beam@sgiblab.sgi.com
From: Bruce Robinson Bruce_Robinson@telus.net
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:32:42 -0800
Subject: [alt-beam] Re: Giant circuit / botpic database site - an alternative approach


JVernonM@aol.com wrote:
>
> It's here:
> http://www3.telus.net/rfws/bwi/index.html
> It's called the BEAM Web Index. ...

Thanks for the plug, Jim.

The index is just a list of links. What's special about it is that it
organizes the links according to type of walker, and points to
individual pages rather than to entire sites.

So if you want to find all the links (that I know about) to 3 motor
walkers, you go to that category on the walker page, and there they are.

I also try to give you some useful information about the link: name of
the robot (if any), creator, number of images you'll find, size of the
graphics on the page (in case you have a slow connection), and a brief
comment. A (+) following the link tells you that page you are going to
links additional pages about the same robot.

The walker page is by far the best organized, and has the most links ...
so you can guess where my interest lies. However, I'll post add any link
that I'm aware of (with a couple of conditions).

If you have one page with a whole bunch of different robots on it, it
will take me a while to add it, because there will be several links to
make. In some cases, the organization of a multi-robot page may just not
be suitable for the index.

Also, the more information you provide me with, the faster I'll add your
pages to the index. Finding all the graphics files in my cache so I can
look up the file size does take a little time. If you add it up for me,
it speeds up the whole process.

Most of the non-walker pages need to be organized better, but I would
like to get suggestions from interested people first. And if you are
passionately interested in a particular category of robot (other than
walkers), I would be quite happy to pass the management of that category
onto you. After all, this is the Web, and we can spread once site out
over several locations ... just so long as we follow some standards.

Finally, the best way to use the Index is when you want to find a
particular type of robot. It isn't a good site for casual browsing ...
individual web sites are better for that.

Bruce



11703 Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:25:23 +1300 [alt-beam] Re: Giant circuit / botpic database site - an alternative approach beam@corp.sgi.com Justin Suggestions of a linkpages and webrings sound good, though I fear people
will just treat it like a linkpage or webring and merely add their site,
rather than file links to the material on their site.
(Eg the goal would be something like: under circuits/sensors/ add
"simple IR proximity switch" and link it directly to that material,
instead of under beam links add "John's Beam Stuff - lots of circuits
and pics", which is completely useless.).
Yet another listing of BEAM websites would be an utter waste of time.
Starting with an already large and indexed list such as the Beam Web
Index and then opening it up for direct modification by anyone might
work...



11704 Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:27:34 +1300 [alt-beam] Re: Giant circuit / botpic database site - an alternative approach beam@corp.sgi.com Justin >ideas. In fact, there already is a database put together by Bruce Robinson.
>The BEAM Web Index has been around for quite some time.
>In 1999 it got a little over 350 hits. Half of which are probably mine :), from checking to
>see if new stuff had been posted. The purpose of this site was to do exactly
>what you say, provide a central place for storing and retrieving all things
>BEAM. But, New stuff doesn't get posted, because no one tells Bruce about it.

That's the point I was making - huge efforts have been made to achieve a
working database, but they fizzle because it comes down to one person to
update the site, and one person never has the time and enthusiasm to
carry such an enormous task indefinitely.

The biggest "constant" source of information in the beam world is the
beam mailing list, precisely because it is free of the need for one
person to do the work. If your posts to the list had to wait for the
moderator to next update it, the list would be Dead, dead, dead. Beam
conversation would move to another place, and when the workload got too
much and the updates slowed, it would move to another place again.
Sometimes it would split, it would always be on the move, and no one
list would be an archive of the beam mailing list. The way it works at
the moment, these things can still happen, but ten times less frequently
:-)

>I really don't see why yet another site needs to be made that, again, won't
>be used. If you want a database that has everything on it, talk to Bruce, he
>already has the structure in place and is willing to do the work.

You've already said that he isn't able to do the work - if one person is
going to maintain such a site, they have to read the list, follow up all
the new urls, regularly re-check old sites, research new circuits,
update most weeks, and do that until the day they die, and beyond.
That's a full-time paid job. That's unrealistic.

>What really
>bugs me about this whole thing is that the Index has existed for about a year
>and a half now and only has a little over 1100 hits. Is a new site needed
>when existing sites are not fully utilized? Are your bots and circuits listed
>on the Index? Why not? And, if you aren't supporting it, why make another?

I explained all this in the post.
Because the existing implementation, as it stands, isn't working, and
doesn't look like it ever can work.
A community website _is_ likely to fail, but the approach could be
different enough that it might not (the mailing list for example). And
since the (minimum) investment effort is a measly 6 near-blank webpages,
a failure (early on) is not going to shatter someone's spirit :-)

In fact I personally think it will fail, but the point is that unlike
any and every moderated site, it might _not_ fail, and is thus the only
hope I have. I admit I'm being very blunt here, but if anyone running a
moderated site takes offence at this, I imagine they have misunderstood
what I am saying.

You ask why my bots are not listed on the index - because I can't _put_
them on the index. The best I can do is submit all the information, but
if I were to submit the information to all the sites say they will add
it but show signs of being long dead, I'd be here all week, and at the
end of that week, and after all that effort, chances are quite
reasonable that it still isn't actually posted anywhere! Spending a
fraction of that time on actually _posting_ the information to a site
guarantees that it actually gets posted, doesn't waste someone else's
time, and allows me to add and edit additional information. Most people
do this, just to different sites (their own) :-)

Also - when my material gets posted somewhere via a moderator, I don't
have access to it. If an important part is lost, or a big spelling error
gets added, or I made a big spelling error and didn't notice until too
late, I feel discouraged from taking more of their time to get it fixed,
because whenever something actually gets posted (ie the site is active),
the moderator is usually devoting more hours per day to that site than I
like to think about, and I certainly don't want to make their life
harder because of a spelling mistake that I should have not made in the
first place.

Also - I'm my own worst nightmare when it comes to moderating. I update
rarely and really don't care about going back and making a special
change just become some idiot didn't proof-read his submission.



11705 Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:24:59 -0600 [alt-beam] Re: Indiglo stuff beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Richard Piotter You can try if you like. I usualy work with larger sheets of the material.

Bumper314@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/12/00 7:41:44 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> richfile@rconnect.com writes:
>
> > They require an AC power source to light. Also, an over voltage blows
> > them, just like a capacitor (they are remarkably similar). You'll want
> > to stick with your standard inverter. You may be able to make one or you
> > can just buy it.
>
> The current being so low on those flash units makes the load of the indiglo
> stuff drop the voltage to about 80 which will give it a nice blue glow (they
> look green on the wall, but i think this blue is even cooler). I would just
> say try it, at most you are out $5 right. Very cool
>
> steve

--


Richard Piotter The Richfiles Robotics & TI web page:
richfile@rconnect.com http://richfiles.calc.org

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11706 Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:55:41 PST [alt-beam] Re: possible motors beam@sgiblab.sgi.com "Timothy Flytch" There sold by private venders... so like all things at wally word sometimes
they just don't have them and may never again... try your local liqueur
store... I've seen them in the grocery stores too... Albertsons... longs...
K-mart... and payless...

Timothy...

>
>I looked for the rotating suckers at the store today.
>Wal-Mart doesn't carry them any more! Does anyone know
>where they can be found?
>
>~Daniel
>
>=====
>ICQ # 39402143
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://im.yahoo.com

______________________________________________________



11707 Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:16:16 -0800 [alt-beam] Re: Giant circuit / botpic database site - an alternative approach beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Bruce Robinson Justin wrote:
>
> .... Starting with an already large and indexed list such as the
> Beam Web Index and then opening it up for direct modification by
> anyone might work...

Not a chance! That's hung off a corner of my business site. Hands off :)

Seriously, though, this is located on my personal webspace, as provided
by my ISP. Notice, no banners, no ads, no irritating pop-ups. One of the
consequences is that only I can update it.

Now if someone wants to take a piece of it and move it to their site,
that's another story.

Bruce



11708 Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:13:04 EST [alt-beam] Re: possible motors beam@sgiblab.sgi.com JVernonM@aol.com In a message dated 3/12/00 8:26:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lifebytes_98@yahoo.com writes:

> I looked for the rotating suckers at the store today.
> Wal-Mart doesn't carry them any more! Does anyone know
> where they can be found?
Craft stores like Michael's and such.

See ya,
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Exhibit/8281/beamart.html
ICQ# 55657870



11709 Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:33:31 EST [alt-beam] Re: Indiglo stuff beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Bumper314@aol.com In a message dated 3/12/00 9:35:48 PM Mountain Standard Time,
richfile@rconnect.com writes:

> You can try if you like. I usualy work with larger sheets of the material.

Well right, just the point have having a cheap fun toy that works for an
applications that wasnt expected and had possible more potential is just
cool..I dont expect this to end world hunger, its just neet, but if you can
find something smaller, cheaper and more versitile I'm all ears, its just
somewhat applies to the beam philosophy since it is normally thown away, but
now it allows for BEAM in the high voltage realm. I am curious what they use
to form the AC wave with this though

steve



11710 Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:47:04 EST [alt-beam] Re: Giant circuit / botpic database site - an alternative approach beam@sgiblab.sgi.com JVernonM@aol.com In a message dated 3/12/00 10:39:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JAF60@student.canterbury.ac.nz writes:

> You've already said that he isn't able to do the work - if one person is
> going to maintain such a site, they have to read the list, follow up all
> the new urls, regularly re-check old sites, research new circuits,
> update most weeks, and do that until the day they die, and beyond.
> That's a full-time paid job. That's unrealistic.
>
That's not what I said at all. I'll repeat for the sake of clarity. Bruce
DOES do a great job, but he's not psychic. He will post anything you let him
know about. He always has. The problem is on the builders end, not Bruce's.
He even has a form you can fill out on the site, what more can he do? Yes, it
could be better, but that involves participation and enthusiasm on your part
not his. Do you expect him to constantly monitor for new information so it
can be used at our leisure? I don't think anyone would expect him to have to
do that, even though, I think he may have resorted to that in order to get
the info he presently has. No, your argument is backwards in my opinion. If
there is something you think should be archived, linked to, or categorized,
then just tell Bruce about it. It's not really workable to let anyone post
whatever they want to a communal site. Opinions and degrees of experience
vary wildly and more work would be needed to weed out the fluff than is
presently required to simply tell someone that you would like something
listed. If more is needed, talk to Bruce about it. He always seems cordial to
me :). You seem to be saying, and I by no means profess to speak for you,
that a free for all site would encourage interest and participation. I
disagree completely. Participation is the key word here. And it sadly wanes
after a couple of months. Zoz has offered many ways to participate on the
Heretics site. Bruce does likewise in a different structure. Again, only
moderate interest. This is on sites where the webmaster does almost
everything. It would seem to me that the most popular sites are the ones
where tutorials and circuits are spoon fed to the newly arrived and are soon
boring when the builder progresses. A cry goes out across the dry net tundra
for more stuff, new stuff, input! But, I say it's already there, just support
and nurture it.

See ya,
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Exhibit/8281/beamart.html
ICQ# 55657870



11711 Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:53:01 EST [alt-beam] Re: possible motors beam@sgiblab.sgi.com JVernonM@aol.com In a message dated 3/13/00 12:05:59 AM Eastern Standard Time,
flytch@hotmail.com writes:

> There sold by private venders... so like all things at wally word sometimes
> they just don't have them and may never again... try your local liqueur
> store... I've seen them in the grocery stores too... Albertsons...
longs...
> K-mart... and payless...
I also saw them hanging in the impulse buy section (next to the checkout) at
Home Depot. They turn up in the weirdest places.

See ya,
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Exhibit/8281/beamart.html
ICQ# 55657870



11712 Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:20:54 -0800 [alt-beam] Re:botpic database site beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Bruce Robinson Justin wrote:
>
> You've already said that he isn't able to do the work - if one
> person is going to maintain such a site, they have to read the
> list, follow up all the new urls, regularly re-check old sites,
> research new circuits, update most weeks, and do that until the
> day they die, and beyond.

Well, that describes it in a nutshell.

Much of the work you mention can be shared. There's a feedback page. Use
it to send me information about sites I have missed. E-mail me about
links that don't work.

> That's a full-time paid job...

What, there's pay? Where? How much?
:)

> I explained all this in the post. Because the existing implementation,
> as it stands, isn't working, and doesn't look like it ever can work.
> ...
> You ask why my bots are not listed on the index - because I can't
> _put_ them on the index. The best I can do is submit all the
> information, but if I were to submit the information to all the
> sites say they will add it but show signs of being long dead, I'd
> be here all week, ...

There's a kind of Catch-22 here. When people send me stuff (e-mail, fill
in the form), I either add the link, or tell them why I can't. But if no
one sends me the information, I can't add it, the site looks stale, so
no one sends me information.

I notice that my last update was February 8, this year. That's not
exactly stale.

Of course, the Web Index doesn't meet all of Justin's requirements. It's
pretty much limited to pages on specific robots. I do try to work in
tutorials ... if they are related to a particular type of robot, I stick
them up at the top of the list.

I've done nothing with the circuits or sensors topics, because all the
"circuits" sites have many circuits per page. I really haven't found any
pages related specifically to sensors that can be used with BEAM robots.

Regards,
Bruce



11713 Sun, 12 Mar 2000 23:55:17 -0800 [alt-beam] mini motors "Zane Bryan" Have any of you folks purchased motors from techmax?
http:/www.techmax.net/small-electric-motors/ They seem to have quite the
variety...I have a dozen of what they eloquently refer to as "#5" that I've
scavenged from cameras (winder motors). I also have one similar to the
"#15"...tremendous torque! Any thoughts as to walker applications? I'm
still at the research stage...be gentle. Right now I'm collecting parts and
waiting for orders and the like.

For some time now, I've been in the design stage of a less 'helpless'
photovore...I've been working on a "treaded" design...more realistically a
belt driven critter that uses the belt for traction as well as drive.
Having to find tiny pully-like, grooved wheels has been a challenge...Tamiya
(1:32 scale 4WD mini racing cars..2 AA powered...www.tamiya.com) seems to
have just the ticket...lightweight bumper guards for stability as the little
buggers have no slots (like "Sizzlers" of days gone by, but more hightech
and non-rechargable)...low resistance...They have a variety of products that
may have BEAM applications...motors, gears, bearings, etc...buying these
odds&ends gets spendy though...Any thought as to an alternative grooved
wheel with low friction?....I've discoverd that some plumbing seals make
great belts (15 cents a peice!) and are very flexible.

I've seen Fang's treaded beast, but I'm working on something a lot
smaller/lighter...Has anyone else tackled the tread problem in a tiny bot?
Looking at microvore sizes in the near future. Torque! Here, Torque! Has
anyone seen my Torque? You know what they say about a BEAMer with tiny
motors...tiny torque! I hate the thought of starting with geared motors,
then belt/pully...yadda, yadda, yadda...trying to keep it simple AND small
is the issue I'm trying to beat...

Pardon the ramble, I went to Portland (OR) today and was very
disappointed...no good junk at the hobby stores and a lot of "You want what
for what? Uh, yeah...right...we've got beams...Oh, BEAM....BEAM? Solar
powered, you say...um...the manager isn't here right now...." Your e-mails
have been my only link to the "real" world...

Z

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