Alt-BEAM Archive
Message #09081
To: beam@sgiblab.sgi.com
From: Richard Piotter richfile@rconnect.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:25:53 -0600
Subject: [alt-beam] Re: BEAM VIDEO was Solar Powered Camera's
Theoreticaly, couldn't you could set up your Nvs and Nus in such a way
that motion across the cameras vield of view would stimulate particular
processes. the more uniform motion, the more it builds up, possibly
forming a rudimentary motion follower? It'd require a lot of neurons,
and maybe it just wouldn't work well or be feasible, but you have to
admit, it's a rudimentary start. BEAM isn't going to be doing any major
"processing" until we up the neuron count anyway! 4 Nvs are nice for
walking gaits, but not for following motion. There are limits to small
loops. Wee need more, and we need real networks. Maybe it is a lot
harder, maybe it's more dificult to tune, but if it is made to work, the
results are very rewarding! I may have to make an Nv expirimenters
board. Problem is how annoying breadboarded Nv nets can often be.
I have a big interest in Neural Nets, and I was studying them way back
in high school. The real networks are ones that branch. They can do the
decision and logic that simple loops can't realy touch. BEAM has
potential, and low res "BEAM TV" is one heck of a start. I have
extensive knowledge about computer, neural, and TV technology. It's fun
combining them!!! I'll have to play around with this little toy! 64 LEDs
though is sure plenty! I'll need to start digging them up! The timing
for the Nvs would have to be timed properly too. I'll have to figure
that out.
Remember, just cause it's not cost effective doesn't mean it shouldn't
be done! Most new things aren't cost effective! They need time to
develop and be understood well enough to do something.
Heck, the Honda Humanoid is an expensive 2 legged walker that walks
around, picks a few things up and manipulates them by remote (last I
knew anyway). Right now It's an expensive developmental tool, not realy
feasible for any major applications. We are just toying around with
ideas that might or might not develop into major breaks in BEAM technology!
I wonder if I can set up that old Neural Networks program on my Mac
emulate BEAM Nvs and Nus. At least imitate them. I wish I knew a good
Mac programer with an interest in BEAM. It'd be nice to have an BEAM
emulator for expirimentation. Heck, I'd even settle for a PeeCee
version! I could just emulate it! :)
Hopefuly, we'll see BEAM bots finaly chasing our cats (or dogs, or
whatever you got) instead of the other way around! Hehe! :)
David Perry wrote:
>
> thats it no more tequilla for you! :-) Yes its granted, as a proof of
> concept its great, but hardly worthwhile spending all that money on a cmos
> style camera. In otherwords at the moment it is overkill. But i'm sure it
> will quickly advance to the point where it is a great accessory capable of
> creating the most adavanced beam bots ever.
>
> David
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennison Bertram
> To: beam@sgiblab.sgi.com
> Date: Wednesday, 12 January 2000 3:00
> Subject: RE: BEAM VIDEO was RE: Solar Powered Camera's
>
> >Oh yee of little faith! We have to start small to start anything! Just
> think
> >of the actual possiblites and ramifications! Imagine the doorways that
> would
> >be opened if we worked out a method by which to decode video signals so
> that
> >we could interface them with Nu circuits! Imagine directing your next
> walker
> >with a tiny video camera the size of a Capacitor, the possibilities become
> >wide open. Sure you could do it better with LDR's at this point, but the
> >point isn't to just tell where the best light source, we want to be able to
> >design systems whoes future purposes could be complex pattern regonition,
> >and object tracking. It's hardly stupid, it would be a serious start, and
> >would warrent it's own entire field of BEAM applications. Evolution baby,
> >yeah!
> >
> >
> >dennison
> >
> >
> >wow! But with only four quadrants it seems stupid considering the same
> thing
> >could be accomplished with 4 LDR's. It would need more complexity to be
> >worth while. How hard would it be to say track an object? Or differentiate
> >between simple shapes. Would the 8x8 be enough?
> >
> >Very promising though!
> >
> >David
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Wilf Rigter
> >To: 'beam@sgiblab.sgi.com'
> >Date: Wednesday, 12 January 2000 1:13
> >Subject: BEAM VIDEO was RE: Solar Powered Camera's
> >
> >
> >>BEAM circuits are very similar to the older analog type video technology
> >>still used in simple B/W TVs and 20 years ago all televisions used analog
> >>beamlike circuits for decoding video signal.
> >>
> >>So it's not surprising that it is fairly simple to use BEAM circuit blocks
> >>to convert video into digital or analog signal suitable for interfacing
> >with
> >>other beam circuits. In the example suggested by Dennison below, The video
> >>signal is converted into a 2x2 matrix which corresponds to the average
> >>light level of a quadrant of a video frame. The attached block diagram
> >shows
> >>the general concept of such BEAM video decoder.
> >>
> >>A composite video signal (ie a sugar cube camera output) is processed by a
> >>sync separator to produce Horizontal and Vertical sync pulses as well as a
> >>DC restored video signal. This circuit requires some 2N3904s and a few
> >>passive components. The H and V sync signals each trigger a Hsync Nv and
> >>Vsync Nv (74HC14) respectively which are adjusted to time out at a point
> >>corresponding to the horizontal and vertical midpoint of the screen. The
> >>signals are connected to one half of a 74HC139 (Z bridge) which generates
> 4
> >>control signals corresponding to each screen quadrant. These 4 Q signals
> >are
> >>used with four 4066 analog gates to route the video signal to one of 4 Nu
> >>(74HC14). The analog voltage on each Nu cap corresponds to the average
> >video
> >>signal of that quadrant This can be used to "influence" a central pattern
> >>generator like a microcore. A digital signal can be generated with a one
> >bit
> >>A/D converter also know as a comparator or Schmitt trigger. If the video
> >>level on the Nu cap is above the trigger level of the comparator, a LED
> >>turns on. A bright light moving from one quadrant to the next, will turn
> on
> >>the corresponding LEDs indicating the relative position of the light.
> >>
> >>This concept can be scaled up to a low resolution "gray scale" (or red
> >>scale) monitor (ie 8 by 8 LED matrix) which can also be easily made with a
> >V
> >>and H chains of 8Nvs each buffered with HC240 LED drivers which can drive
> >>64 LEDs in real time. The video signal is "sliced" by a comparator the
> >>output of which drives the HC240 tristate enable lines. No Nu stages are
> >>needed to measure the average video since your eyes will do a visual
> >>integration of the LED light level. Any old video signals can be used for
> >>experimenting with this concept including a camcorder or VCR video output.
> >>
> >>regards
> >>
> >>wilf
> >>
> >> <> <>
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Dennison Bertram [SMTP:dibst11+@pitt.edu]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 10:07 AM
> >>> To: beam@sgiblab.sgi.com
> >>> Subject: Solar Powered Camera's
> >>>
> >>> Hey, look at:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.mpja.com/allpict.asp?dept=125
> >>>
> >>> You should see the "sugar Cube" Camera. It runs on 5v 10ma, a power
> level
> >>> easilly provided by a solarcell. Any ideas? Possibly, Hey Wilf! think
> you
> >>> could come up with something to interpret video signals? What would be
> >>> MOST
> >>> interesting is if we could find away to interpret the general LIGHT
> level
> >>> of
> >>> a quadrant of the cameras vision. IE LEFT, RIGHT, UP, DOWN. That way we
> >>> could then use cameras as light level inputs to say, a head. I'm
> thinking
> >>> that analog wise, this might be a little difficult.
> >>>
> >>> dennison
> >>
> >
> >
--
Richard Piotter The Richfiles Robotics & TI web page:
richfile@rconnect.com http://richfiles.calc.org
-- Make Money by Simply Surfing the Net or responding to E-Mail!!!
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9082 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:15:27 -0700 [alt-beam] re: parts source beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Dave Hrynkiw At 06:42 PM 1/11/00 , Max Inggal wrote:
>I hope that all you guys can see that of course Dave
>is going to say that his motors are better. But I
>have to say that most of us don't want to shell out 10
>bucks for a little pager motor. So Dave don't take
>this the wrong way but is there any possibility of
>lowering the prices? They're a bit steep. I'd rather
>spend 3 bucks for a motor that'll last a year than 10
>bucks for one that will probably last the same.
I'd love to give a better price break on the motors, but we've just put in
an order, and they're costing us MORE than before, even though our volumes
are going up! Has something to do with Japanese Yen/USD conversion rates.
Pisses us off too...
I hold no grudge against anybody wanting to get the $3 or even $1 pager
motors out there, but know this: none of the surplus pager motors _I've_
ever seen beat the Namiki's in any performance spec other than price.
Bottom line: If you're happy with the motors used in your design, that's
the most important design criteria.
Regards,
Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
9083 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:18:48 -0700 [alt-beam] re: parts source beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Dave Hrynkiw At 06:51 PM 1/11/00 , Max Inggal wrote:
>some of the really effiecient motors that I've seen
>are the Port Escape motors.
.
.
>
>The other really tiny and really effiecient motors I
>think they were called smoovey motors or something.
>They ran from $60-$500 for a motor. Super effiecient
>but super expensive.
The Smoovy's claim to fame are their size. One of the tiniest gearmotors
out there too! But I wouldn't call them efficient from the spec's I've
seen, besides, they need an external controller (they're brushless motors)
which is yet another cost.
The Escaps are truly beautiful, and they warrant their price most of the
time. I've heard Mark curse them a few times in regards to their fragile
gears and output shaft bushings...
Those Nihon gearmotors everybody found a while back on focus mechanisms
seem to have the right balance between cost and performance. When we can
justify it, we're gonna see if we can track them down....
Regards,
Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
9084 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:28:24 -0700 [alt-beam] Re: more on motors and video beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Dave Hrynkiw At 12:02 AM 1/12/00 , Les Davis wrote:
>Besides that, you can be assured Dave isn't gouging anyone. I'm pretty sure
>his markup on these products is minimal at best.
>
>Les Davis
Oh God.... time to put on the armour! I can already feel a few
flame-throwers getting ready to go *ffffffft-PWOOOOOSH*!" ;>
-Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
9085 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:26:17 -0700 [alt-beam] Re: more on motors and video beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Dave Hrynkiw At 11:37 PM 1/11/00 , Bruce Robinson wrote:
>Don't forget "consistency" as well. I've had some great deals from
>surplus suppliers ... and a year later when I want some more of the
>identical thing, they're gone.
>
>I like surplus stuff for fooling around and experimenting. But when I
>start designing something for a specific purpose, I don't want to
>compromise good design just to suit the parts I happen to have.
We've learned a valuable lesson in that regard as well - don't expect
manufacturers to keep a line of product in production if you're not buying
enough. Remember the 0.22F 2.5V Panasonic Gold caps? Wonder why we're not
selling them anymore? Take a guess why....
Point is: if you want a reproducible design, make sure there's more than
one way to build it!
Regards,
Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
9086 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:23:57 -0700 [alt-beam] Re: Solenoid Sources? beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Dave Hrynkiw At 09:32 PM 1/11/00 , Elmo wrote:
>Anyone know where to get some cheap, miniture, low power solenoids?
I hit Electronic Goldmine for their selection. Most are 5V, and not very
power efficient, but they're fun to play with!
http://www.goldmine-elec.com
Regards,
Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
9087 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:09:14 -0700 [alt-beam] Re: parts source beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Dave Hrynkiw At 05:39 PM 1/11/00 , jester96beam@iname.com wrote:
>Could it be that the reason for the different shape is to accomodate the
>magnets? Maybe if they were round, the diameter would be equal to the flat
>side, giving a smaller motor. Besides, I think most of those motors with
>the flat sides are actually LARGER than the pager motors, so the round
>parts are an addition to the motors, so perhaps the magnets are actually
>larger.
I'm no motor expert, but my way of thinking suggests that a more consistent
magnetic field would increase overall efficiency.
-Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
9088 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:22:13 -0700 [alt-beam] Re: more on motors and video beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Dave Hrynkiw At 08:15 PM 1/11/00 , Jonathan D Rogers wrote:
>Hey, I've got some of those pancake motors from old 5 1/4" disk drives.
>But all the pancake motors I've ever seen are mounted on circuit boards.
Unfortunately those are really tough to use effectively. Look for older
walkmans and tape-cassette recorders for the really big flat ones (2"
diameter, 3/8" thick) that generate LOTS of torque!
>But I guess they don't sell in very high volume, so they have to mark
>them up more...
Sorry again guys... can't make any promises in that regard.
>Shifting topics:
>That camera idea is so cool. And so simple!
Very true. Another Wilf piece'o'art circuitry!
Regards,
Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
9089 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:10:39 -0700 [alt-beam] Re: Pager Motors (Was parts source) beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Dave Hrynkiw At 05:52 PM 1/11/00 , Bob Shannon wrote:
>So when we speak about efficient motors, and 'more efficient', we really
>should
>be a bit more specific. When I described the Mabucci FF-K10WA as being
>'more efficienct' than a pager motor, I was really describing the
>application as much as the motors themselves.
Perhaps "more applicable"?
-Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
9090 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:07:16 -0700 [alt-beam] Re: Motor Efficiency beam@sgiblab.sgi.com Dave Hrynkiw At 05:35 PM 1/11/00 , Mike Kulesza wrote:
>So what is it that makes some motors more efficient and some less?? You
>know, the low efficiency ones are harder and choppier to turn by hand, and
>generate less current as a dynamo. The efficient ones spin longer when
>turned by hand and generate more current.
More poles on the motor rotor make for "smoother" rotation; closer
tolerances (increased magnetic flux density) make for higher densities;
better magnets make for better flux density... all these things add to the
cost of course!
-Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
9091 Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:24:08 +0100 [alt-beam] Moving out arno.jansen@superconsult.nl (Arno Jansen) Dear Beamers,
Since my emailaddress will be shut down in a few days, I have to get off the
beam list soon. In a few weeks, I am moving to the States and will have a
new address there and probably rejoin the list. But I can't get off the list
since the external-majordomo system doesn't recognize a beam list.
Can anyone tell me what the name of the list is, since i must have forgotten
somehow?
Best,
Arno Jansen
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