Alt-BEAM Archive
Message #03743
To: JVernonM@aol.com, beam@corp.sgi.com
From: Dave Hrynkiw dave@solarbotics.com
Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 01:16:27 -0600
Subject: [alt-beam] Re: (last response) In answer to Dave
At 04:32 PM 5/25/1999 , JVernonM@aol.com wrote:
>I will jump in here one more time, even though I said I would not.
Ditto, last-time-wise. It'll be taken off-list after this.
If anyone has further comments about Solarbotics we would appreciate it if
you forward your comments directly to us. I would assume some people may
be getting annoyed at seeing a company name showing up so many times on the
mailing list.
We would like to make clear that everything that has been said about the
business practices of us (Solarbotics Ltd.) is an ASSUMPTION. We are a
PRIVATELY owned company that does not release our up and coming
ideas/products, purchase prices or business plan to anyone. Not even to
Mark T.
>In a message dated 5/25/99 2:03:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>dave@solarbotics.com writes:
>
> > That's a bit of an unfair statement, especially when Mark has _no_ say in
> > what we finally do at Solarbotics.
>I was referring to certain inferences in your ad copy.
Ok, I can see your point there. But if other similar kits were to come
online from non-Solarbotics sources, don't you think they would use similar
copy as well?
>But, your ad copy says things like, "We are developing hextiles with Mark
>T...." And you do it in other examples as well, but too numerous to list.
If we say it, it must be true! ;> Hey, if Dennison/Fang/Bolt/JVernon had a
killer concept that others wanted to see kits of, we would be throwing
those names around in association with Solarbotics too. But as it is, MWT
is the de-facto-standard for the coolest BEAM devices on the planet.
>Actually, Mark has been very positive in his responses to me on kit
>development. The inference mentioned earlier gave me the impression that you
>had him doing it for you.
BOY, talk about knocking the wind out of my sails! ;>
> > If you don't think these sources are our competition, then what are they?
>I was referring to kit prices (particularly that scoutwalker).
I'll fight to the death on all the kit prices EXCEPT the ScoutWalker.
That's an exception that even I'm not happy about. But my accountant makes
me sell it for that.
> And solar cell prices. You have no competition there. That puts you in a
> very advantageous position and you know it. Even if some of us develop
> kits, we still need solar cells.
Nope, I'll take you to task on that one. Sanyo cells are available in the
US, as are other manufacturers. We just happen to believe the Suncerams are
the best for the buck. *IF* you're stuck on on Suncerams, then you very
well could be right.
>>In
> >>my opinion, that seriously undermines the ability to expand the
>technology.
> >> Please explain your above comment - I don't follow you.
>I was referring to money, market expansion, and customer acceptance. Not
>ideas or new circuits. You can deny the biases that exist, but it won't make
>them go away.
But you *did* say "undermines the ability to expand the _technology_", not
"money, market expansion, and customer acceptance". As for biases existing,
YOU BET. The world is full of them. In BEAM, the regular 2 transistor SE
was the first BEAM circuit, Solarbotics was first for products, and Mark
was the first on the scene. Of course there will be biases towards
who/whatever was first there. Just ask Dvorak (better keyboard that QWERTY)
and Sony (beta better than VHS).
>Again, the point was missed. Your little business is growing, you stated so.
>You say you are going to rethink pricing, but not because of this thread (no,
>of course not)
Hey, at least I said it with a smiley ;>
>but because you are making enough now to survive it.
Well, that and we've been busy with other projects. There's plenty to do
around here, y'know! 8>
> Your
>economic logic seems to be this: My market is tiny so I charge a lot to
>survive. Let's say your market was one customer, I guess you could say that
>1000 dollars for a cap is reasonable because the market is so small.
This is the way specialists of all types survive, although I would put us
somewhere between "Space Shuttle subcontractor" (very one-task specialized)
and a "Ferrari Dealership" (pretty specialized, but with other capabilities
useful outside Ferrari).
That said, our kit prices are pretty set until we get into much heavier
quantities (ie: Walmart orders from us). And although a good idea, we can't
afford a $100k loan to do what you suggest on the faith that customers will
come. We think most of our kit prices are pretty reasonable (note I said
_most_), and new customer avenues have yet to be explored.
It boils down to this: for our company it works. What works for you, works
for you.
> > Since then, we're going through much more stock and getting them in
> larger
> > volumes, and will accordingly be reviewing the prices in the next few
>weeks.
>Well, there's some progress anyway. I still don't see the logic of marking
>them up 1000 percent or more in the first place.
Nothing we have is marked up 1000 percent. Keep your assumptions about our
company numbers to a minimum. YOU have NO IDEA about our figures.
>Are you planning to lower solar cell
>prices as well, I didn't think so. No reason to.
Outside the occasional sale, probably not, I'm afraid. Setting up the
Sunceram dealership cost us a great deal in time, money and effort.
Besides, our solarcell prices are pretty competitive in the face of what
Radio Shack and other sources will charge you.
FYI, you want to talk about starting out small, my initial investment in SB
was in the solarcells, which nearly cost me my relationship with my wife
("You wanna spend HOW MUCH on _Solarcells_?!?"). You couldn't have started
out much smaller than Solarbotics did, as we too both worked outside the
company to make a go of it.
So you made the point that others would have to go through great pains to
get initially set up with solarcells and motors. You are
correct. However, why should they go through anything different than what
we did?
>There is no market. Markets are places filled with competing businesses and
>complicated price and inventory tradeoffs directly related to competition. To
>say there is a market, but no competition is an oxymoron.
Let me get this straight - are you saying that if there is a demand for a
particular good or service, that it is NOT a market if there isn't competition?
>But, I refer you to my above statements on solar
>cells, the same applies here. If I make a kit, I need those cells and motors
>to maintain quality. But, my most viable way of getting them is through you.
>That raises my kit cost, and makes my business dependent on you as a supplier
>of the two most important components. That gives you a definite advantage in
>any up and coming market.
Then that is your business decision, and can't be used to blame us for a
monopoly. There are other motors and other solarcells - go forth and be
fruitful!
> If you recall, I originally tried to make contact
>with you to sell my stuff through Solarbotics, you never returned my e-mail.
If this is so, then I have to apologize. I get dozens of email a day, and
if I don't keep on top of them, some get lost or refiled into places I
don't review often enough. Please send me a repost of it privately.
>Your not interested, so I either give up, or try to scrape it together
>myself while being forced to let you indirectly dictate my pricing. You don't
>see this as giving you a serious control over any market here? Come on.
What? "COME ON" YOURSELF! No I don't see this as control over any market
here. What you do is up to you, not me! If you want to start a BEAM
business like we did, and live in a little dump eating Kraft dinner for 4
years, go for it! But don't blame us for "controlling the market". We set
up our product then started to distribute it not the other way around. How
can we say if we will sell or not sell a product when we have not even seen
it yet?
>Actually, I was referring to the recent activity and new products on your
>site. You seemed to be a sleep at the wheel for a while there, and it seemed
>you woke up lately.
Admittedly, a new daughter will slow down business activities. There's few
outside sources that can force us to "get off our butt" (ie: upcoming LANL
workshops that want new stuff). Our latest flurry of products came from
the fact that we just acquired a source for the product. We are constantly
looking for cool products to sell. We did not as you so quaintly put
it "woke up lately".
> I don't know if it was because of a realization of up and
>coming competition, or you just woke up on your own. And you ain't gonna
>tell.
Ummm...see above paragraph. Why didn't you think I'd tell?
> > How can that be
> > construed as "seem to be commercially the same person"?
>Please re read your ad copy and sales pitches. You do infer that Mark is
>doing just that.
Like I said, is there any other way to relate what kind of tech is in the
kit? Any other BEAM kit would do the same. For example, almost every BEAM
website has a reference to Mark Tilden too - does that mean Mark helped
them write the website? Perhaps if only 1 of 20 websites referred to him
directly, but they all do.
>It was a compliment in joke form. I thought since you are Canadian you would
>recognize the catch phrase popularized by Mike Myers on Saturday Night Live,
>when referring to Barbara Streisand in a most lovable way. Sorry, perhaps to
>obscure.
Just a bit - haven't watched SNL in about 6 years.
>I understand why you copy your designs from Mark's. It
>makes them much more economically viable in a community that hangs on his
>every word, and can see no fault in anything he says or does.
Then why did we do a kit on Richard Weait's Miniball? It isn't Tildenesque
in the least. Mark does not even like them. However, we think they are cool.
> This is illustrated by the comment made that I
>haven't built anything. I have built quite a few things, but they are my own
>original designs and approaches.
Whoa - please reread the big message. I was just replying to Zoz's concern
about the lack of BEAM evolution. It wasn't a poke in anybody's direction
about not having built anything. BTW, where *IS* your website anyways? I
would love to see what you have got.
> > Pounce on by whom? Rejected by whom? I'll admit that I've never been a
> big
> > fan of the "Genome Project", but I'm not going to throw my support behind
> > every non-Dave/non-"BEAM" idea that hits this list.
>Non Dave? Non BEAM? I have been wasting my time here.
Sorry - I must have missed your point.
>No, actually, you could be more supportive of new ideas.
Why? Because I'm about the only "original" BEAMer left on the list? New is
not necessarily better.
>Only after a note from
>Mark T. supporting it did it get ANY serious consideration. Nope, no biases
>here.
Man's opinion carries weight, don't it?
> > I think _that_ has been more of a BEAM myth than anything else.
>Ludicrous! Ask Bob Shannon about that one.
Ok, I'll let that one go, but anybody who seriously is into BEAM knows that
uC's aren't shunned.
>My opinion is that it's a very viable layout for larger
> > machines designed to work in linoleum-floored buildings, like a hospital.
> > A few cm clearance is plenty at that scale.
>But I thought walkers were supposed to replace wheeled bots to get the things
>off of linoleum and put them outside.
I suppose there's room for that argument. But I'm not going to get into
another debate on legs vs. wheels. I'll leave it at "I love Stryder"
(hmmm...bumpersticker time...).
> > what I will comment on is, THAT TO ME, Mark's work is parallel to Brooks'
> > work a decade ago with Ghengis and the like, but using a different
> > approach. I fully expect Mark to be working on a Cog-like machine in the
> > next 5 years too.
>Not with BEAM I'm afraid. But we'll see. I'd say by then the Honda humanoid
>will be a little more visible as well. I'm sorry Dave, but that thing is a
>walker.
I'll take that bet! A Tilden BEAM Cog in 5 years time....or...or...I'll eat
a fried peanut-butter and banana sandwich. As for the Honda Humanoid, yes
it is a very impressive walker. No question about that.
> > There. One big-*ss reply, rather than a bazillion little ones. Now
> time to
> > get to some serious work...
>This is serious Dave.
Writing these emails has taken the better part of a day. I _do_ have more
productive things to do to keep Solarbotics customers happy.
Regards,
Dave
ps: Nothing taken personally, Jim. I understand we're literally "talking shop".
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/alt-beam
http://www.egroups.com
- Simplifying group communications
Home