Alt-BEAM Archive
Message #03699
To: JVernonM@aol.com
From: Dave Hrynkiw dave@solarbotics.com
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:49:23 -0600
Subject: [alt-beam] [non-tech / LONG]Solarbotics Replies... WAS: Ya wanna lay off
Hi All.
Just back from a long-weekend trip to find 150+ msgs, with a fair portion
mentioning our little 'ol company.
For those not interested in some of the more commercial avenues of BEAM,
delete-away!
Here's my all-encompassing reply to the various questions bouncing our way:
At 01:27 PM 5/22/1999 , JVernonM@aol.com wrote:
>Dave will never sell at Walmart or expand the ranks of BEAM with his present
>methodology. Overpriced parts and kits actually limit access. It puts the
>"hobby" beyond the reach of many young folks who could benefit.
Our eventual goal is to get product in at RadioShack and Dick Smith
electronics. But we have to work up to being able to produce those volumes.
Solarbotics operates on only the capital it generates (no business loans),
so we can't go and spend $100k on one kit run to get the price down, then
sit on inventory for 5 years. We simply can't afford to do it that way.
We're gradually working our volumes up, and the prices are coming down
because of it. This thread has made us rethink some of our prices, and we
WILL be reviewing all our product prices in the next few weeks (tax time
just finishing - that's a priority!), and adjusting prices accordingly.
(Who says we're inflexible? ;>
JVernonM@aol.com wrote:
>Every
>business man knows that the way to open and expand a market is to drop
>prices, not raise them.
That is _one_ way. New markets in untapped areas (ie: new distributors) is
another way.
JVernonM@aol.com wrote:
>If your pricing is high, you
>actually limit your own growth. So, to say the kits need to cost more because
>they sell less is a little backwards.
JVernonM@aol.com wrote:
>Usually the market dictates price through competition. But, there's that
>monopoly thing. Never mind, he sits at the right hand of Tilden, correct? And
>God can do whatever he likes. Weird.
That's a bit of an unfair statement, especially when Mark has _no_ say in
what we finally do at Solarbotics.
JVernonM@aol.com replied:
> > Ummm.. No argument there. He's done the bulk of the conceptual R&D on our
> > kits, and he gets royalties because of it.
>I thought he got royalties for his ownership of certain patents and
>copyrights?
Yes, he does. But if it wasn't for his original work on his Photopopper,
we'd have no kit based on it. He doesn't actively think "Let's build
something that Solarbotics will want to turn into a kit...". He builds (and
builds, and builds), and we look over his shoulder and say "BOY that's
neat. Can we turn that into a kit?", and that's about the extent of his
involvement. WE design the PCBs, WE manufacture them, WE take care of all
the documentation. If we do it right, Mark says "Cool kit...".
JVernonM@aol.com wrote:
> >I thought he got royalties for his ownership of certain patents and
> >copyrights? Hmm, you think he would help me develop my kits? I kind of
>doubt
> >it.
>
>Whoops! Tilden WOULD help you develop your own kit. I've tried several
>enterpises before and he's very helpfull with anything you would need. Try
>it and see!
>Dennison
You know, I never even knew of Dennison's involvement with Mark in this
regard. Well done if you managed to pull Mark away from his bench!
JVernonM@aol.com wrote:
> And you can't see the ramifications of being the only supplier, the only
>retailer with Tilden helping with you product, and the only commercial
>presence at workshops and on the net has a huge negative impact on the
>viability of encouraging competition.
There are others doing workshops that we don't see a penny of (except for
some solarcell sales). There are other kits (ie: the LNS "Solarbot Bug
Kit") that are exactly 5 _CENTS_ cheaper, and use vastly inferior motors,
sensors, instructions and PCBs. How do I know? I bought one to review it.
You don't see them selling it for what a CYBUG costs, do you? How about the
ImagesCo. "Solar Engine" Kit? $2.05 cheaper than the Solaroller kit, but
again, something we wouldn't want to sell. As for our parts, practically
everything we stock is available through Digikey and the like.
If you don't think these sources are our competition, then what are they?
>In
>my opinion, that seriously undermines the ability to expand the technology.
>Jim
Same song Zoz seems to be singing. In light of what I illustrate 2
paragaphs above, how can this be so? In the past 6 months, there's been an
explosion of input from the likes of Wilf and Walter, both of whom haven't
personally met Mark, myself or any of the "old hands". I've been thrilled
to see these new ideas! Please explain your above comment - I don't follow you.
Richard Piotter replied:
>If BEAM grows, then
>maybe Dave can bring down prices, but he can't "break even or even run
>with low profits. He'd need to get that money elsewhere (other work) and
>that'd cut back the time he has from BEAM,a nd it'd eventualy destroy
>the little buisness.
Exactly correct.
JVernonM@aol.com replies to Devin Hyndman:
> > Over priced? First off, the capacitors he sells you can get from digikey,
> > but at a higher price. He buys in mass quantities so that he can sell
> it to
> > people at a cheaper price.
>I don't know what your talking about here. The last time I checked Digikey
>prices, even on their lowest quantities, they were well below Dave's price.
Yes, this will be changed. We initally started stocking these ages ago in
very low quantities, and we had to charge that much to make it worthwhile.
Since then, we're going through much more stock and getting them in larger
volumes, and will accordingly be reviewing the prices in the next few weeks.
> > I have not seen Solar botics raise prices.
>Actually, not long ago we in the US did see a markup attributed to the
>currency exchange. I was referring to the present structure.
It was ALWAYS our policy from day 1 that international orders were charged
in US funds. Always. Reason being that all our major items (about 85% of
what we carry) is charged to us in US currency. And since the vast majority
of our customers are US based, it made the most sense to make US funds the
operating currency of the company. The fact that there was a period where
some of the sales went through in Canadian dollars were due to accounting
problems which have been now fixed.
> > >Usually the market dictates price through competition.
> >
> > uhm, What market?
>EXACTLY! There isn't one. There is a monopoly based on long time
>acquaintances. We call it a good ole boy network.
>Jim
I think you mean there isn't _competition_, not a market. There is a
market, and a growing one at that. As for the "Good ol' boy network",
that's just a difference of opinion...
JVernonM@aol.com replied:
>Rich wrote:
> > When the market grows, then prices can begin to go down,a
> > dn then with lower prices, then, and only then will it be possible for a
> > major explosion in his buisness. Understand?
> >
>Yes. I do understand. I have been in business for 12 years now, I know how it
>works. I also know that pricing is based on competition. If you have none,
>the sky is the limit. Competition also promotes growth through inspiring new
>approaches and methods.
Not entirely correct in this case. Pricing is based on competition AND
customer base. Supply and demand. If there are too many suppliers of a
product for a set number of customers, price drops until some of the
suppliers go out of business.
JVernonM@aol.com replied:
>That is a little odd. I, or someone like me could be offering you
> >parts and kits at half the cost of Solarbotics if we chose to, but you
>don't
> >care.
>
>Well, no. When people get stuff thats cheaper than solarbotics. It sells out
>pretty fast.
>
>Dennison
This is true! When a motor special comes on someplace, we feel it! But as
mentioned by Dennison...:
> And the Pager motors? Sure we can get two dollar pager
>motors every few months, but Dave's got to have his in steady supply. Have
>you looked at how much Pager motor's cost New from Most places? OUCH! Much
>more than what Dave's selling them for.
We'll stand behind these Namiki motors as the best bang for the buck,
especially when there are no eccentric weights to yank, and they're BRAND
NEW from the supplier.
JVernonM@aol.com wrote:
>I did notice a little more activity and new products after Dennison started
>offering stuff and an interest grew. (It really does work guys.)
???!!! If you're referring to our Christmas sale, it wasn't from the
pressure of Dennison and other BEAM-surplus finders. Of course, I don't
expect you to believe me that any upcoming sales from Solarbotics AREN'T a
direct result from this thread. Well, not entirely... ;>
> They have
>associated themselves closely with the man himself. They are times when they
>seem to be commercially the same person.
I'll say it again, Mark is our good personal friend. If BEAM were to
disappear, we'd still love him for the kind, funny, generous man he is.
He's an extended part of our personal family. As for the second sentence,
Mark has NO SAY in Solarbotics operations. I'd LOVE it if he were to wear
Solarbotics t-shirts or buttons on camera, but he doesn't. How can that be
construed as "seem to be commercially the same person"?
>But this is a factor because of the small town atmosphere of a
>limited market.
Exactly my point earlier - limited market! Glad to see you notice this too.
> And lastly, and I think most importantly, is that Dave is
>sweet like butter :).
>Jim
Now, WOCK DA HECK is that supposed to mean?!? (Never mind, I'll take it as
a compliment...I think... ;)
In reference to shipping...
Evan Dudzik wrote:
>I think that it is not very smart to buy other things from
>him unless you only need a couple, because if you can come up with an
>order of at least $25 from digikey, you can get free shipping, and get
>it a HECK of a lot sooner. I mean no offense dave, but 6 BUCKS and you
>have to wait for like 4~6 weeks? cmon, thats crazy.
The basic $6 sends your order through regular postal systems which USUALLY
get to almost anywhere in under 2 weeks, but we have to quote our times
according to Canadian and US postal guidelines, hence the 4-6 week warning.
The best we can offer is to look at other shipping methods and see what we
can do. UPS ground STINKS ($20 customs charge for int'l orders, on a $8
3-day shipment!), so we'll see what we can do. For our Canadian customers
that order airmail, we use "XpressPost" which is guaranteed under 3
business days. Wish we had something similar for US (again, will look into it).
JVernonM@aol.com replied to Steven Bolt:
> > BEAMer knowledge has difficulty expanding, because of the curious
> > accent on tinkering as opposed to design. For instance, there is no
> > way to get the various 2-transistor SEs `right', because there are
> > fundamental problems with that design, which no amount of tinkering
> > can solve. Hence these supposedly simple devices will forever be
> > a source of much frustration.
> >
>In my opinion BEAM is a very tightly wrapped ball of
>biases. Your suneaters are an excellent example. Suneaters solve many of the
>problems with the S.E.'s, but almost no one builds them. You offer kits, but
>I would say you haven't sold many. You are not Mark T. or Dave H. so your not
>really BEAM.
WHOA! I *really* don't know how you come to that conclusion. IMHO about 2/3
the website that have any sort of schematics also have the SunEaters
referenced too! I've seen many posts by SunEater builders on the list, so I
don't know what you're basing this conclusion on. I consider much of
Steven's work BEAM, and hold him and his work in high regard.
>The knee jerk reaction in the BEAM
>community to different, and even better ideas is to pounce with ferocity on
>the turf invader. Even if the ideas have merit, they are rejected as non
>BEAM, impossible, unimportant, or unnecessary.
Pounce on by whom? Rejected by whom? I'll admit that I've never been a big
fan of the "Genome Project", but I'm not going to throw my support behind
every non-Dave/non-"BEAM" idea that hits this list.
> BEAM is a technology that
>revolves around the opinions of a small minority of people. They, through the
>use of certain bias, really control the flow of acceptance.
I'll assume you're referring to me as an example. So if I don't like an
idea, what am I to do? Should I rather just not reply to any concepts I
don't like? Then my silence is my disapproval...
>And this bias filters down to the BEAM community as
>CPU's suck. Don't even look at them.
I think _that_ has been more of a BEAM myth than anything else.
> As I watched Stryder stumble over one
>bot it didn't know was there and finally bump into another Symet that
>triggered it's leg tactile sensor, I thought, "This thing can barely walk."
>As far as I can tell, it only lifts it's legs a couple of millimeters off the
>table top.
Well, that's your opinion. I look at Stryder and see a working example of
something I thought wasn't possible - a 4 legged, fixed motor position
walker capable of very efficient walking gait (not lifting legs very high
saves power). My opinion is that it's a very viable layout for larger
machines designed to work in linoleum-floored buildings, like a hospital. A
few cm clearance is plenty at that scale.
> But, from Tilden's point of view, it
>has more merit as a precursor to robotic evolution than Cog.
I didn't take notes of that footage, so I won't comment directly on it. But
what I will comment on is, THAT TO ME, Mark's work is parallel to Brooks'
work a decade ago with Ghengis and the like, but using a different
approach. I fully expect Mark to be working on a Cog-like machine in the
next 5 years too.
In reference to the StarWars Ep1 thread:
Re: Not Really Evolution Comparison
Jean Aubois / Zozzles T. Freep / John A. de Vries II replies:
>So get off your butt
>
>Whether or not I'm on my butt or not is none of your concern and certainly
>ought not to have been a subject for comment on this list.
Interpreting my intent here a bit literally, aren't you? But then again,
most of your messages usually have some content relating to semantics,
spelling or Webster. NOT THAT I'M ATTACKING YOU, just making an
observation. I was just implying actual progressive work rather than
critique advances technology.
>:and build something to advance the tech rather than
>:complaining about the lack of "real" evolution.
>
>Complaining or commenting? Given your mode of thought, people like Siskel
>(rest his soul) and Ebert and Maltin have no right to critique movies
>because they don't make them. This is patently ridiculous.
What, it wasn't a complaint? Pardon me for misinterpreting you message. And
I hope you are not comparing yourself to these aforementioned critics in a
BEAM sense. There are a very few that can make this assumption (myself NOT
included).
>:BTW, how's work on "Lurch" coming along?
>
>Lurch is finished. Why do you ask? What difference does it make?
I wasn't aware it was finished. Is it to remain a testbed? We were talking
about advances in BEAM tech, and I knew you were working on a 5 legged
device - a very interesting avenue of development I thought would
illustrate the point of progressing the technology.
> For
>that matter, it -IS- something at least a little bit different than the
>standard two motor walker, isn't it? So perhaps I -HAVE- furthered the
>tech.
No doubt there - I am sure it has proved to generate some useful data. So
I'll ask again - how's work on Lurch coming along? Any useful gaits? Any
video on the horizon? I'd love to see it moving.
>C'mon, Dave, quit with the personal attacks, ok?
>
>Sheesh!
Geez, one comment about "Get a life" and the "personal attack" gets
pluralized! Ok, I won't _directly_ flame you on the list! ;>
There. One big-*ss reply, rather than a bazillion little ones. Now time to
get to some serious work...
Regards to all,
Dave
PS: If you reply to this message PUH-LEASE edit out all the unnecessary
content - the messages will be getting MASSIVE!
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, no - that's H,R,Y,N,K,I,W. No, not K,I,U,U, K,I,_W_. Yes,
that's right. Yes, I know it looks like "HOCKYRINK." Yup, only
2 vowels. Pronounciation? _SMITH_".
http://www.solarbotics.com
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